Kayla's Birth Story: Welcome Baby Sawyer!

S A W Y E R  R Y N E


Born January 26, 2017 at home
9 pounds, 6 ounces / 22 1/2 inches

Background: If you're not familiar with Judah's marathon home birth transfer birth story, you can read about that here- Judah's Birth Story 

After that birth experience, and then our next pregnancy ending in miscarriage, we certainly had a choice for his pregnancy. Throughout this whole pregnancy, God really taught me to choose JOY and speak life over my pregnancy and birth. ["For God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but of power and love,"] was a verse I claimed every day, especially in the first trimester. And from the beginning of this pregnancy, I brought my desires for this birth to the Lord, and believed they would be so. ["Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill His promises to her." Luke 1:45] Specifically, my dream birth requests were that my baby would be born during the day, in the sunlight; that my labor would be under 12 hours; that I wouldn't have back labor; and that there wouldn't be any meconium present.

Throughout my pregnancy God reassured me over and over. In the last month, one day my belly was itchier than normal. I put all the oils and all the butters on it, and it got increasingly worse by nighttime. I started to panic, seriously afraid it was PUPPPs again. I sat in the bathtub sobbing while Karl prayed over my belly, and within minutes the itching completely stopped. I was also nervous near the end about baby's position. I didn't want another posterior baby/labor, and Sawyer's position wasn't ideal. But the Lord assured me that the baby would be in the perfect position he/she needed to be in. I trusted and believed that it would be so! ["You split the sea so I could walk right through it; you drowned my fears in perfect love."]

Birth Story: On Wed 1/25, I had little contractions during the afternoon. They picked up a little by dinner, and kept up all night even with rest and a bath. I thought, "Its early labor, yay!" I went to bed that night at my normal 9pm, but couldn't fall asleep. I tried to rest as much as possible but just couldn't get comfortable. At 2am I got up to eat a snack, and the contractions were still steady. They weren't crazy hard, but had gotten longer and stronger since dinner. I *almost* called our doula, but wanted to get a little more rest first. So I prayed- ok God, if this is labor, kick it into gear. If it's not, please let it stop so I can get some rest. Then I closed my eyes ... and woke up the next morning.

On Thursday, 1/26, when I woke up I was so peeved. I had been up all night for nothing?! No baby still. All those contractions for nothing. And mostly I felt dumb- a birth worker who didn't know her labor was prodromal. Embarrassing. 
So I complained a little, cried a little, and then started my day like any other day. Karl took Judah to school, I got dressed and headed to Stone Creek. I did my usual routine: forward leaning inversion, walk, stair climb, and stretches. I even facetimed Sarah and Hannah from the treadmill and told them all about the night before and how annoyed I was. After I was done with my routine, I took a shower and got dressed. I had been losing chunks of mucus plug and bloody show for a couple days, so I put a pad on (thank goodness). I was sitting on the chair/stools doing my hair, and then stood up to put on mascara. As soon as I stood up I felt a small leak. (11am) I knew it was my water, but waddled to the bathroom just to check. Sooo I grabbed my stuff and met Karl in the cafe. He was heading to pick up Judah from school, and I was heading to Ericas to get adjusted. (I already had an appt for noon but told them I was coming in a little earlier ham expected!) I waddled in, got adjusted, waddled out, leaking a little more here and there. Meanwhile I was texting my friends HaileyJennyNicole, and Sarah asking them to pray that contractions would start soon. I wasn't expecting to start labor with ruptured membranes and didn't want my water to be broken for too long. I also didn't want any vaginal exams during labor, especially after my water was broken, but I wasn't sure if my curiosity would be able to really handle that...

When I got home around noon I ate lunch and got Judah ready to go to Giselle's house. I said goodbye to my first baby 😭. Then I started diffusing some labor oils, sat on my ball, and hooked up to the breast pump to try to get contractions going. Well, about a whole 2 minutes later, I felt and heard a huge pop and knew it was my water bag. (Thank goodness I had put a chux pad on the ball haha!) It was totally, completely clear! 🙌🏼 I hopped in the shower so I could just let it flow and not worry about it, and started having a few contractions. Yay! I was so glad, but still not convinced anything was really happening. Elizabeth had already planned on stopping by to borrow something around 1, so I got to talk to her for a few minutes and take a selfie. Around that time (I think), I went ahead and called Katy and Corrine and told them I was contracting so they could come whenever. Not too long after that, I needed to breathe and concentrate through contractions and was leaning on karl from in the shower. I remember Katy and Corrine getting there (around 2?) and being excited that it was really labor!

I really had not wanted to get in the tub too early and then have to get out, but soon after contractions started I just wanted to get in anyway. Karl went to start filling with water. I was waiting and waiting in the kitchen what felt like forever. Karl was doing something with a filter 😑, so I told him to forget it and just get water in there! Then I just hopped in and told him to let the water run on my back while it was filling. I labored in the tub for a while, but I really had to pee. Corrine tried to get me to pee over a little bucket (lol) but that wasn't working. So i said grab the peppermint and let's head to the toilet. Once we were in there I really wanted to poop too. Neither was coming out 🙄 I just wanted to pee and poop so bad! I tried relaxing, I tried pushing- nothing. (When we were in the bathroom I thought that labor was actually moving along and that I was in active labor, so I said we should call Sally and have her head over. She was getting off the interstate on our exit and would head straight to our house.) Then I suddenly just wanted to be back in the tub. I guess I thought if nothing was coming out, I'm getting back in the water. So I high-tailed it back into the tub. This is when I really felt like I was losing it. I for sure wanted an epidural (lol), and I knew I could not keep going like that for too much longer. It was so fast and intense and I couldn't get on top of it. I felt like I couldn't get into a rhythm, I couldn't cope, I couldn't think. Even though it was hard, and overwhelming, I wasn't afraid. I *was* trying to assess what was happening and doula myself, but that wasn't happening 😂 As a birth worker, it was nuts to not know what was happening with labor. I really had no idea when I was in active labor, when I was in transition, when I was actually pushing a baby out. At some point I even asked Katy and Corrine how much longer, and called them liars when they said not much longer haha. 
But thennnn, I started pooping and it was actually working! I was so excited and told karl to get the net. I'm telling you- I had no idea this was baby pressure. I honestly just wanted to poop 😂. For some reason right at that second, I just reached down to check myself (not sure why), and I felt baby's head about an inch or so up. WHAT 😳 Pretty sure I yelled, "where is Sally?!," and right at that moment she walked in the door. Next thing ya know I could see hair floating out into the water! Sally got the mirror in the tub so I could see while I pushed, and it was awesome. After head came out, for some reason I stood up out of the water. I could feel baby's shoulders trying to rotate but they were getting caught. Sally had me hop out the tub, do a deep lunge to make more space, and push. And then I looked down and there was a baby! It happened so fast (to me lol) and I couldn't believe it. Karl said, "it's a-" and then stopped himself so I could look and see for myself. So I got to look and say, "it's a boy!" Born at 350, 2-3? hours from my first contraction! (5 hours from my water leaking) I hadn't specifically prayed for a smaller baby, but I knew this one would be. A pound and a half smaller than Judah! Sawyer was so tiny, and born with vernix! He was perfect.

After Sawyer was born I was bleeding a little bit more than usual, so I popped a piece of placenta in my mouth, drank some placenta smoothie, and got some oils on my belly. We started talking about which drug I was gonna choose to stop the bleeding, but then -voila- it stopped and I didn't have to do any drugs. Thank you, God, for placentas! 🌳

God blessed me with immeasurably more than I ever desired for this birth. It was perfect and beautiful and redeeming in every way. It was incredible to scoop up my own baby; to hold him and do skin to skin as long as I wanted; to leave him attached to his placenta until we were ready to cut the cord, which was hours later; for Karl to skin to skin him while I was being assessed; to go to sleep in my own bed hours after having a baby! We've had a couple unexpected hiccups postpartum, but I can still say that this experience has been beyond better than the first. 
["Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." Mark 11:24]

A Natural Guide to Postpartum

Postpartum is full of nitty gritty details that no one likes to talk about... well, unless you are a doula! Our birth doula, Kayla Mundt, is diving into postpartum to share her best tips after giving birth to her second son, Sawyer.
 

~Natural Immediate Postpartum~


I'm getting all my postpartum gear ready and set up for after baby and thought I'd share what I'm planning on using this go-round! I have most of these things already in a basket on the back of my toilet. 

+Depends. Ok, these aren't super natural. A better alternative would be cloth. And for after the first week I have chemical-free natural pads. (And padsicles 🙌🏼) But the first couple days just call for some Depends #sorrynotsorry #keepinitreal
+Fridet by NoseFrida. I don't think this existed when I had Judah, but I'm excited about it. It's a peri-bottle that actually squirts upside down, just where you want it. 💦
+Postpartum bath herbs for sitz baths. These are Earth Mama Angel Baby, but I also wanna grab some homemade from Caitlin Guillory with Breath of Life. So soothing. 🛀🏼
+Natural Calm. To replace the Colace. 🚽
+Clary Sage also helps minimize uterine cramps. 🌀
+Claraderm Spray. This spray has Lavender, Tera Tree, Myrrh, Frankincense, Chamomile, and Helichrysum oils in some fractionated coconut oil. It soothes the skin and helps it repair itself. It's expensive, but it's gon be worth it. 🙌🏼
+Arnica tablets reduce swelling. 👏🏼
+Joy & Frankincense (and probably others) for emotional support in the rollercoaster that is week 1 postpartum. 🎢
+Ningxia for healthy energy, brain clarity, and all-around goodness. 🦄

Not pictured: 
+Placenta pills. I'm having my placenta encapsulated. Because hormones. 💊
+After-pain tincture. I don't remember this with Judah, but I've read they're worse with each child...😖
+Alcohol-free witch hazel and the witch hazel pads. For the padsicles. Alcohol-free is important. 😳
+Belly binding. Katy is gonna bengkung belly bind me to help my diastisis recti and all my organs have the support they want. 

Moms spend so much time preparing the nursery, and/or for birth, but postpartum is often overlooked. It's so nice to have everything set up and ready to go, so I can better enjoy all that baby time.

 

~Postpartum Essentials for Momma~


Ok so once I'm able to get up out of bed and live real life, then what?! This is what im looking forward to this time! [I'll separately post about nursing essentials, because that's its own whole thing!]

+Water bottle. Get a big one that holds looots of water. (Stainless steel or glass if you're putting essential oils in it!) This will reappear as a nursing essential. 💧

+Newborn-friendly carrier. I'm so pumped for this beautiful Solly wrap a friend got me! 😍 I'll also use my ring sling. Whatever you feel comfortable wrapping baby in! Trust me, you'll want snuggles AND your hands. 

+Dry shampoo. Dry shampoo is life. I made this diy one with Rosemary & Bergamot oils and put it in a salt shaker 💁🏼

+Face wash. (There's a trend; you may or may not get to actually shower ha!) The minty scrub from Young Living is my favorite. The mintiness is refreshing and wakes me up too. Perfect after sleepless nights! 🌿

+Ningxia packets (convenient) and Multigreens for sustained, healthy energy. 💪🏼

+Joy & Progessence Plus. For regulating the hormones and #allthefeels. 🎢😜

+Leggings. If you didn't learn/accept this while pregnant, now is the time: leggings are pants. These are Blanqi nursing/postpartum leggings and I'm soooo excited about them. They come up to under your boobs to 1) hold it all in and 2) cover your belly for breastfeeding. 🙌🏼

+Snacks. All the healthy snacks. Ask good for nursing. Your body just completed the most physically demanding task of. all. time. Feed it right. 

Not pictured, but very important:
+Mascara. Don't have high expectations for getting ready for a while. But do what you can and need to to feel normal. Mine is mascara. 💃🏼

+Netflix. Especiallyyyyy if you're having your first baby and don't have to take care of an older child! Please do yourself a favor and just actually do nothing allllll day. Snuggles and Netflix. 📺

Bring on the baby time!

 

~Breastfeeding Essentials~



This one is the hardest to really predict, because breastfeeding is so unpredictable! But you can be prepared for a lot. I would say these are mostly focused on the first 6 weeks while supply is regulating, so I didn't include pumping or bottle-feeding items. 

+Water bottle. Get a big one that holds a lot. Bonus points for a straw. (Stainless steel or glass for EOs!) You will never be so thirsty in your life. 🐪

+Snacks, snacks, snacks. Bonus points for one-handed snacks like protein bars. Healthy fats, high protein, low sugar and dairy. Now's not the time to blow all your preggo healthiness. 🍎

+Coconut oil. Good for the nips, it's super soothing and doesn't have to be washed off before baby nurses. Also can be put in your coffee or smoothies for more fat! Another good option is Earth Mama Angel Baby nipple butter, but I wouldn't put that in your coffee. 😂

+Fennel. Balances and encourages lactation. May not be necessary, but good to have just in case. 🌿

+Milk-Savers. This product is new to me, and won't apply to everyone, but in the beginning many women have beacoup milk. While baby is nursing one side, this handy guy can catch all the milk from the letdown on the other side! 🙌🏼

+Hot/cold packs. These purple guys are by Lansinoh and can be warmed or put in the fridge. So soothing for engorgement, clogged ducts, all the fun times. 🍥

+NingXia / Nitro Combo. Chances are you'll be up in the night for feedings. This combo is like a 5-hour energy, but good for you and without a crash. 🎉

+Treats. So you gotta stay healthy and all, but you also grew a human and continue to grow said human. Feeding babies is hard work so I say treat yoself. 🍫

+The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding. The only breastfeeding book you need. The boobie bible. To read before birth and have on hand for reference after. Also, have on hand the number for local LCs and join your local LLL group. Your nurse, your next door neighbor, your friends aunt all have good intentions, but there's a good chance they're misinformed when it comes to breastfeeding problems, advice, etc. Get the right support. 🍼

+Nursing Pads. In the very beginning just use disposables. Way easier and less to worry about. But if you're a lucky gal who still leaks after a few weeks (🙋🏼), I vote for Bamboobies. They're super soft, not itchy, and actually unnoticeable in the bra. They have day and night ones 💦

+Pump. In the first few weeks, avoid pumping and let your supply regulate. But if you're super engorged and haaaave to (I still say hand express), a hand pump is where it's at. It's less intense than an electric and you can control it better. 🐄

Not pictured:
+Nursing pillow. My favorite is My Brest Friend, but really any support pillow is great. 
+Chiropractic care for you and baby. 
+Deep Relief Roll-On for your neck and shoulders. They'll be sore from staring at that bebe. 
+anything to do with pumping.

Parenting on Social Media is a Lie...

As I sit down to write this, I'm having to wrestle the key board away from my toddler while simultaneously holding my coffee out of his reach. He is equal parts sweet and spicy but lets be honest, I only share his sweet side with the social media world. I'm finally stopping to ask myself, "what is this saying to other parents?" If we are never real online and only ever share the cute, smiling pictures of our kids in clean, perfect outfits then we are never being our real selves. And on the flip side, whether we mean to or not, we start to compare our worst moments with everyone else's best moments. When I log onto Facebook and all I see are these perfect pictures of everyone's perfect kids I can't help but start to feel inadequate in my parenting. It's not until I call up my real-life mom friends, tell them what's going on, and feel unbelievably relieved to hear them say, "Oh man, the same thing happened yesterday!" 

So I say it's time to get real with what parenting really looks like! Here are side-by-side photos of the one's I would post to social media and the real life ones...

Fun family day at the park? Nope, time to have a huge melt down.

Why is this just a picture of me and my husband? Because my kid refused to hold still and look at the camera.

Look at all my clean, beautiful cloth diapers! But what about that one time I found a dirty diaper in a wet bag in the garage that had been there for who knows how long...

Snuggly moment with daddy? Nope, just trying to bear-hug the tantrum away.

PLEASE just take a picture with mommy!!!

What a healthy, organic breakfast for my little angel... oh wait, you're just going to dump it on your head.

Look at that tidy bedroom! WHAT? It's been 5 minutes!! And where are your clothes?!?

 

What does real life parenting look like in your house? Share your funny and hard moments with us, because believe me, we understand!

Tiffany's Birth Story

Just to give you the whole story about my pregnancy I will start from the very beginning.  My husband Justin and I had been trying to conceive a baby since the fall of 2005.  After many years of being unsuccessful we changed our focus to adoption and finalized two separate adoptions in 2014.  In April of 2015 I started feeling sick and, after some encouragement from a friend, I took a pregnancy test and discovered I was pregnant.  To say we were surprised was the understatement of a lifetime and we ended up taking about 5 pregnancy tests before we believed it was true.

My first phone call was to my good friend Tisha Seghers who is a midwife for Crescent City Physicians at Touro.  I was pretty confident at the time that I wanted a natural childbirth but I was nervous about committing to it thinking that I wasn’t sure if I could do it or not and I didn’t want to be over confident.  At our first appointment we talked a lot about what a natural birth would look like and what Tisha’s role would be.  She encouraged me to think about hiring a doula.  My husband and I were not 100% sure we wanted to hire a doula thinking that we wanted the birth to be the just the two of us.  We decided to talk to a few doulas in the area and see what we thought.  We only ended up meeting with one doula team, Katy Soong and Corinne Marshall, and knew almost immediately that we wanted to work with them.  After I hired them they brought on another doula Kayla Mundt so I had the added benefit of having Katy and Kayla at my birth.

Throughout my pregnancy we met with Katy and Corinne about our birth and our plan.  I started seeing Dr. Erica Manger with Wellness in Motion for regular chiropractic adjustments using the Webster Method to open my pelvis.  We also did some hypnobabies and Bradley work on our own and read both books.  We decided to take private birthing classes from Elizabeth Meier and Hailey Aliff.  I felt very prepared from all of the work we did on our own and from the people that we were working with.

I am 36 years old and I also have thyroid issues so my pregnancy was considered somewhat high risk.  Tisha and her collaborative partners referred me to Maternal Fetal Medicine with Touro.  Along with Tisha they monitored me throughout my pregnancy.  The baby was measuring very large, greater than 95th percentile, and around 27 weeks we found out I had gestational diabetes.  As it got closer to the end of my pregnancy Tisha and I met and decided that the best course of action was to look at inducing me at 38 weeks.  This wasn’t the typical practice for Tisha but we both agreed that it gave me the best chance of having the birth I wanted.  However we both made a plan to get me into labor on my own the weekend before I was scheduled to be induced.  This included everything from drinking red raspberry tea leaf, using evening primrose oil, having regular adjustments with the chiropractor, using clary sage and fennel, I scheduled two prenatal massages, and I was on my birthing ball as frequently as I could be.  I basically did anything and everything except drinking castor oil.  I mentally had prepared myself and kept saying that I was going to go into labor on my own the Saturday before my induction was scheduled.

Monday, a week before my scheduled induction, I was 37 weeks pregnant.  I woke up that morning wet and having contractions.  They weren’t really intense and I had been having them for weeks but something seemed different.  I called Tisha and she said to come in that it looked like I was in labor.  I got to her office and come to find out it was nothing.  I was so bummed.  I really thought I had started it all on my own.  I got into my head after that and as the week passed I got more and more disappointed thinking that I was going to have to be induced and I wasn’t going to go into labor on my own.  Saturday came and went and I just resigned myself that I was going to have to be induced.  I still kept up with all of my induction methods I was trying on my own.

Monday, the day I was scheduled to be induced, I woke up at 4:00am having contractions.  They were different than I had felt before so I waited about a half an hour and I started timing them.  They weren’t incredibly painful but I couldn’t sleep through them.  I was terrified to say I thought I was in labor so I didn’t say anything to my husband until about 7:00am when I was making the kids breakfast and hanging on to the countertop.  He asked what was wrong and I told him I was having regular contractions and pretty sure I was in labor.  I finally felt confident that it was happening and not going to stop around 10:00am and called Tisha, my midwife, and Katy, my doula, to let them know what was happening.  Tisha said to labor at home until I felt like the contractions were intense enough that I needed assistance from her.  She encouraged me to stay home as long as possible as she knew I would be miserable if I was at the hospital too long.  I spoke with Katy too and she also encouraged me to rest and just enjoy my time at home and to call her when I felt like I needed assistance getting through the contractions.  Around 3:00pm I called Katy and asked her to come over.  The contractions still weren’t that intense but I was going stir crazy and kept thinking I wanted to go to the hospital.  It was so funny to me because my whole pregnancy all I talked about was wanting to labor at home but once I was in labor all I wanted to do was go to the hospital.  I guess in my mind I knew that was the end game so to speak and it made me want to get there.  About 5:30 Katy and Kayla said that they were going to go grab dinner and give me some time to be alone with Justin and they would come back about 7:30 and we would get ready and make our way to Touro.  I was scheduled to be there for induction at 9:00 so Tisha said to come one way or another at that time.  When they left I applied clary sage and fennel to my pressure points and started diffusing it.  About 20 minutes later my contractions started getting much harder.  I was having to hang on to something when they would start and I could no longer talk when I was having them.  When Katy and Kayla got back to the house I was ready to go.

When we arrived at Touro Tisha came and checked me and I was 4 ½ centimeters dilated and almost fully effaced.  She said there was really no reason to give me any of the induction medications.  I was beyond thrilled!  I had gotten it started on my own and I was going to be able to have a fully medication free birth.  We decided to let my husband go to sleep and I was laboring with Katy and Kayla.  I went from the birthing ball to the rocking chair to the bed.  Around 1am or so they asked me if I wanted to get into the tub.  I went to stand up and get out of the bed and my water broke.  Again I was so excited that things were progressing on their own so naturally.  Well then it got real and very intense. 

I started having really intense contractions and was not getting a break.  I also started having back labor and the contractions would come on in my abdomen and as soon as it would end it would go to my back and I would have another one.  The tub was helpful but I was starting to cave.  They kept telling me that I was in transition and that it was the hardest part but I just kept getting in my head and thinking about how I was going to push this baby out when I literally thought I was going to not make it through the contractions.  I finally caved and called my husband over to the tub and asked for the epidural.  He was so sweet and he just looked at me and said, No.  I literally just stared at him.  He said no, you can’t have an epidural because I know it isn’t what you want.  You want a natural birth and you are so strong and I love you and you can do this.  I wanted to cry but I also knew he was right so I got into my zone again and I committed myself that I could do it.  A little while after this I fell asleep, in the tub.  No clue how long I slept for.  

Throughout transition I mostly stayed in the tub.  I got up and walked around the room some and also got in the shower or laid in the bed.  I spent a lot more time in the bed than I thought I would have but it was comfortable and I was happy there.  Around 7:00am Tisha came and checked me again and I was 10cm.  There was a part of his bag still attached and I also had some scar tissue around my cervix that needed to break before he was going to come out so I needed a little more time.  I was also not mentally ready to push at this point.  I got back in the tub for a little while but was still certain I didn’t want to birth in there.  I started feeling the urge to push and about 11:30 they got me out of the tub and into the bed to push.  As soon as I started pushing Tisha was called into a delivery next door and had to leave the room.  There was a complication and she ended up being gone much longer than originally anticipated.  By the grace of God I rolled over and fell asleep again.  When Tisha came back in the room I needed a little coaxing to get back in the game.  My husband put on his drill sergeant hat for a moment and was like wake up and let’s do this thing.  I finally got up and pushed about 4 times and he was out.  I had built it up in my head so much and it happened so quickly.  I expected pushing to be so much worse than it was.  It was a lot of pressure and then I felt the ring of fire and a few snaps, which must have been me tearing, and then he was out and on my chest.  

It was literally the most amazing feeling and it was everything I wanted it to be.  My birth was long but perfect and I would do it again in a heartbeat.  

The biggest things that I took away from my birth experience were that it didn’t hurt nearly as much as I thought it was going to.  It was uncomfortable and exhausting as I ended up being in labor for 35 hours but it didn’t hurt like I expected it to.  The one thing I would change is that I would have communicated better with my doulas and my husband.  I was scared or nervous at certain points throughout the labor but I didn’t want to admit I was scared so I stayed in my own head a lot.  I think that everyone would have been able to meet my needs better if I had communicated it them.

I do feel like my birth was successful because I built the right support system.  My doulas and midwife were amazing and I would not have been able to do it without them.  

Kayla's Birth Story

The 42 weeks that he grew safe in my belly were glorious. The forty hours that I worked to bring him into the world were amazing. The moment he was born was absolutely perfect. I am still so thankful for the peace that surrounded me throughout labor; I was never afraid, and completely trusted God, my birth team, and my body. I am still so thankful for God’s healing, and my sweet, healthy, PERFECT boy.

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Melanie's Birth Story

Not one part my labor and delivery do I regret, it was the most amazing, empowering experience of my life and I would recommend a natural birth with a midwife to anyone who'll listen.  What do I think was the big game-changer for me during my pregnancy?  Finding a Doula.  I truly believe that if it were not for her I would have ended up in a C-Section for sure.  That would be my first advice to people trying to VBAC or have a natural birth.

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